ECW Podcast: Stonewall Jackson at Gettysburg (with Kris White)
Why do so many people want to see Stonewall Jackson at Gettysburg? Is it one of the great counterfactuals of the Civil War, or is it Lost Cause porn? Or both? ECW’s Chris Mackowski and Kris White discuss.
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What are your thoughts on the beheading of the Stonewall Jackson statue from Charlottesville?
If it was an act of vandalism by a mob, then the perpetrators should be punished. If it has been removed by officials to be stored, restored, or displayed elsewhere, then I do not have a problem with it. While I do not necessarily feel that they should be destroyed, I do feel that they have no place in front of government buildings or main business areas. Battlefields and museums are ideal places for them
Just to be clear, you are OK with the Jackson statue being BEHEADED, as long as it was all done legally?
I am ok with any part of a statue–or the entire statue–being removed by the owners of the statue for any reason at any time. I do not approve of mobs or individuals vandalizing property–public or private–that they themselves do not own.
This episode was very good. However, the discussions of Stonewall at Gettysburg, and the “what ifs…” that go with them, have two basic issues. The first is the cherry-picking of Stonewall Jackson. The second is the effect of Jackson’s command style at the actual battle.
The first issue which Stonewall is likely to show up at Gettysburg. The people that ask the “What if…” question tend to want the Stonewall of the Valley Campaign (“independent” command far from Lee), Second Manassas (“independent” command closer to Lee but not with Lee), and Chancellorsville (where he moves 12 miles away from Lee). However, Lee’s army is consolidated at Gettysburg, and not spreading out: Jackson will have to work in coordination with others. This is the Jackson of the Seven Days (not his best work, to put it lightly), Antietam (where he is not a factor), and Fredericksburg (where his troops are nearly routed by Meade). In all these instances Jackson is with Lee as he would be at Gettysburg. This is the Jackson that would likely be with Lee at Gettysburg: more the Stonewall of the Seven Days than the Stonewall of the Valley
The second issue is that Stonewall is there at Gettysburg through the effect of his command style His orders were very direct: “You will gather your men at 8 am, be on this road by 8:10, march 50 minutes of every hour in this order….Get to point A at 12:50, get into “X” formation, and attack point B from the east.” There is no “if practicable” or “avoid a general engagement” here. Jackson was very hard on subordinates that did not follow his orders to the letter no matter what. These are not the kinds of orders that Lee and his headquarters will gave to Jackson’s replacements. Jackson’s replacements (Ewell, Hill, Early) did not know how to act on these kinds of orders because Jackson did not train them how to work with orders like Lee’s. Jackson is dead, but his command style hovers over aspects of the battlefield.
I ask what if MG Hiram Berry had been at Gettysburg?
This meme has been done to death by lost causers and I just roll my eyes these days when I see it brought up. You might as well speculate what Dwight Eisenhower would have done with command of the Union army for all the good it does.
You should listen to the episode before you pass judgment. You’ll be surprised at what you hear. Kris and I are notorious skeptics on this question with a long record here at ECW of poking holes at the assumptions underlying this scenario.
I wasn’t passing judgment on you guys, I’m sorry if that came across. I have listened to it and quite enjoyed it. I especially liked the discussion of Ewell’s performance on July 1st. He was unfairly maligned IMHO.
First of all, I think people should stop with the “Lost Cause” label to those they disagree with; it’s cheap and easy, but mostly cheap, and often used out of context.
However, the discussion is meaningless, as everyone knows that Jackson was sniped on the First Day by noted Gettysburg crank John Burns. It was unfortunate for Burns that his gimpy leg impeded his escape, as he fell into the hands of the outraged Jubal Early, who after a thorough, five minute trial, hung Burns in the Town Center. Viewing this event from Cemetery Hill so unnerved Union icon “Oh Oh, It’s” Howard that he ordered a strategic redeployment to Rhode Island. The irascible Early then conducted what became known as ” The Barbecue of the Burg”, or, in some literature, “The Burning”. General Phil Sheridan, coauthor of the post war Sheridan-Lieber Code of proportional response, roundly condemned Early’s incendiary activities as “unworthy of a gentleman!”
Yeah, attributing it to lost cause followers isn’t really correct, I plead lack of morning coffee when I wrote it. It’s still a useless exercise, like speculating what Jackson could have done with a brigade of tanks (not Sherman tanks of course). For the record, in my case I’m easy but not cheap.
Well said, Alton! I’m not even a match in a forest fire! 😃
How can i access the rest of the GWTW posts from the past week ?