What Was So Wrong with Slavery?

“What was so wrong with slavery and why did it cause the Civil War?” This question was asked of a seasonal park ranger at the Fredericksburg Battlefield Visitor Center a few years ago. This question was asked by a white mother from New York, with her husband and teenage children beside her. As she finished asking the question, she must have seen the expression on my face – an expression of disbelief! I could not believe that someone would ask that question in the 21st Century.

Slaves provided the economic wealth of the South. Without slavery, the planters could not work the fields of the large plantations. Plantations would not have been profitable if not for free labor. Paid labor would have been much more expensive. Plus, you cannot borrow money on people you do not own; however, you could borrow money using slaves as collateral. After the international slave trade ended, slaves became more valuable, and the planters began breeding slaves. There was a market to sell slaves to the Deep South and Midwest. Another reason for the breeding: if you cannot buy slaves, then you can rely on the already enslaved to produce more children, increasing the number of slaves you own, thereby increasing your wealth.

Slavery was very cruel to most black slaves, especially the field hands. Slaves were beaten, whipped, castrated, branded, pierced, had limbs amputated, and killed in various ways. Slave women were often sexually abused by white masters, their sons, and overseers. More importantly, many slave families were separated when members were sold. In a lot of situations, the most fertile enslaved women and men were often chosen to be together in order to produce more children. Most slaves were forbidden to marry unless their owners permitted it, and many marriages were not formalized until slavery ended.

Slaves were forbidden to learn to read and write, kept ignorant so that they would not be aware of their plight. It would be a contradiction for them to find out that they were living enslaved “in the land of the free.” Slaves were told that it was in their best interests to remain slaves. They were forbidden to congregate, especially for religious services, unless approved by their masters and overseen by whites. Many of these laws were enacted in 1831 after the Nat Turner Rebellion in Virginia killed more than 60 whites.

After that rebellion, freed slaves were supposed to move out of the Southern states, and free blacks were no longer supposed to own slaves. Most of the free blacks who did own slaves owned their own relatives, so that their families could remain together. Of course. there are exceptions to every rule and law: there were some blacks who owned slaves and treated them the same way white slave holders treated their own slaves. Also, there were some free blacks who stayed in the South, mainly those with skills, for example blacksmiths.

A most glaring truth was that free blacks were hated by most slave owners because they were a contradiction to slavery in slave territory. They were a bad influence on the enslaved. It made slaves want the freedom that these blacks had. However, it was a very tense freedom that could be taken away easily. The death of a slave, based on the circumstances, could be reimbursed by the state or local jurisdiction; meanwhile, the life of a free or freed black was worth nothing in a slave society.

Most blacks hated slavery. However, a class system developed on many plantations between field hands and house “servants.” Many house servants thought that they were better than the field hands. They were generally treated better, and many of them were the offspring of their owners or someone else in the family. For example, Sally Hemmings was the half-sister of Thomas Jefferson’s wife.

While the overwhelming majority of slaves wished they were free. some slaves became spies for their masters and received special favors. Children were used to tell the mistress what the other slaves were saying back in the slave quarters. Some of the children were given candy and other little treats when they revealed information against other enslaved. However, when the other slaves found out who betrayed them, those slaves were ostracized. In many cases, the adult enslaved would not say very much around their children because they knew how the children were used by their oppressors.

Slave women cultivating tobacco [Photo from Official NPS Website: Bernard Slave Cabins]

I have read many books about slavery and the cruelty of slavery. Slaves who ran off toward freedom, if caught, suffered very drastic punishment, including severe whipping, branding, jailing, and even amputation. However, death was usually the most severe punishment, although to some slaves, the selling off of their children was more severe than even that. If you did not work hard enough in the fields or you did not pay the proper respect to a white man or woman, you could be whipped or punished in another way.

There are stories where some white owners or overseers would go to slave cabins to have relations with the slave women, and their “husbands” would have to leave. If the men or women complained, they could be punished or killed.

For all these reasons, the life expectancy of a slave was far lower than the average American.

Now, let’s look how slavery caused the Civil War. Most blacks were not considered Americans, and in 1857, the Supreme Court stated in the Dred Scott Decision that blacks were not American citizens. Officially blacks became full American citizens after the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments to the Constitution.

Congress had reacted to slavery by passing a series of compromises, but also had a gag order during the 1830’s and 1840’s not to discuss slavery and upset the Southern congressmen.

Although abolitionists and the Underground Railroad helped turn some in the North away from slavery, these other events helped bring the nation to war:

  • The Missouri Compromise of 1820 was an effort to preserve the balance between slave and free states. Missouri was admitted as a slave state and Maine was admitted as a free state. The compromise included a law that stated that slavery was not permitted in the Louisiana Territory above the 36′ 30″ latitude line.
  • The Compromise of 1850 upset the balance of slave and free states because California was admitted as a free state and the slave trade in Washington, DC, was abolished. In return, the Fugitive Slave Act was amended and strengthened. This was very costly to people in the North. If they harbored escaped slaves, they were committing a Federal crime.  The federal government became responsible for capturing and returning fugitive slaves. Citizens harboring slaves were subject to a $1,000 fine and up to a six-month jail sentence.
  • Uncle Tom’s Cabin (1852)

    The book Uncle Tom’s Cabin by Harriet Beecher Stowe showed the cruelty of slavery to this country and the world. It became a best seller but was banned in the Southern states. The book made more Northern people aware of the cruelty of slavery, and many of them looked negatively upon the South as a result. The South now thought that most of the people in the North were abolitionist, but this was not true.  Only about 10% of the North was truly abolitionist.

  • The Anthony Burns Case in 1854 centered on a slave who had been hired out but escaped to Boston. He wrote a letter to his brother, still owned by their slaveowner, who received the letter. The slaveowner went to Boston to claim his “property.” Burns was arrested and taken to jail.  Two groups of abolitionists, one small black group and a larger white one, charged the jail in an attempt to free him. One deputy was killed, and two men who got inside the jail were beaten back. President Franklin Pierce ordered the Marines and some artillery to go to Boston and escort Burns back into slavery. A large crowd watched as the Federal force took Burns back to the South. However, an African American church raised $1,300 to buy Burns, and a year later he was back in Boston.  The most important issue here was the president of the United States used the United States Marines to bring back a fugitive slave. Think of the cost for bringing back one slave. How did that look to the North, when a slaveowner, backed by the U.S. president and military, went to Boston to bring back one escaped slave.
  • The Kansas–Nebraska Act overturned the Missouri Compromise. Through the notion of “popular sovereignty,” the people who settled the territories were given the right to decide if slavery would be legal in the territories. Both pro- and anti-slavery groups flocked to the territories and actually fought each other from 1854 through the Civil War. This act definitely moved the United States toward Civil War, but Kansas became a free state in 1861.
  • In 1856 in “Bleeding Kansas,” John Brown became a household name as he led attacks against pro-slavery settlers.
  • John Brown’s Raid in Harper’s Ferry occurred in 1859, right before the Civil War. He wanted to lead a slave rebellion to capture the armory at Harper’s Ferry in order to arm the slaves he would free in the Southern States. Colonel Robert E. Lee would lead Marines to capture Brown, who was then tried and convicted by the State of Virginia. He was executed, but he became a martyr for the abolitionist cause and rightly predicted that the slavery question would be settled by bloodshed. The South was horrified: a slave rebellion was led by a Northern white man, using escaped slaves. Every Southern state begin opening military schools, if they did not already have them. (Virginia already had the Virginia Military Institute [VMI]). War was now imminent.

Slavery is the overwhelming cause of the Civil War. Let’s examine the Confederacy’s cause of states’ rights: the only “states right” that was an issue that could not be negotiated was slavery. In the Confederate Constitution they state it, Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens states it, and so did Confederate President Jefferson Davis. [EDITOR’S NOTE: Here are other primary sources that discuss slavery as a cause of the war.]

Slavery was the economic system of the South. If you took it away, you took away the wealth of many of the planters. The only way plantations could survive was for slaves to work the property. I have seen wills of large plantation owners where the majority of their wealth was in the value of their slaves. In 1860, the 4 million slaves in the South were estimated to be worth $3 billion. After the war, many of these owners could no longer afford their homes without their slaves.

The North was not innocent, either. Some Northern states did not want any blacks, whether free or slave, to live within their borders. The North was just as racist as the South in this regard. Many white men and white immigrants did not want to compete with slave labor or free blacks, as that would bring down wages and take away some of their jobs.

Inside enslaved quarters at Ben Lomond Historic Site.

I want to tell this story from Andrew Ward’s book The Slaves War: The Civil War in the Words of Former Slaves. A former slave woman told her granddaughter the story of a former slave, who got married after the war. One day she and husband talked about their old days in slavery. She told him about her baby boy sold away from her and about a distinctive scar on his arm. Her husband had that same scar on his arm and when he discussed his story, they found out that they were mother and son. He soon left her because he could not stay married to his mother. That is a tragedy and they may not have been the only couple that had that problem. There were other stories in that book of families meeting and siblings not recognizing or knowing their kin. After the war, many slaves searched the South to try to connect with their families—some were successful, but most were not!

A couple of years ago, we had some interpretive training at the Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania National Military Park , whereby, when explaining sensitive history, such as slavery, we ask people to put themselves in the other person’s position. In this case, I would have the mother put herself in the position of the slave woman. Suppose her children were sold away from her, suppose her husband was put out of their cabin while a slaveowner stayed with her and, when her husband complained, he was severely whipped. How would she then answer her own question, “What was so wrong with slavery and why did it cause the Civil War?” What do you think her answer would be?

About Steward T. Henderson

Civil War historian at Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania National Military Park and living historian with the 23rd Regiment USCT and 54th Massachusetts Infantry Co. B. I am also a member of the Trail to Freedom Committee in the Fredericksburg, VA area and a member of the John J. Wright Museum in Spotsylvania, VA.
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92 Responses to What Was So Wrong with Slavery?

  1. Mark Harnitchek says:

    I just had the same look on my face reading that lady’s question — hard to believe…but i guess am not surprised…one of the pillars of the Lost Cause, where slaves were really OK with that “peculiar institution”, apparently lives on…or maybe her only knowledge of the Civil War is from Gone With the Wind…hopefully your response changed this family’s thinking…thanks for this post.

  2. John Pryor says:

    An excellent post, but from the standpoint of 160 years after the Civil War. A better question by the woman would have been to express surprise why a system so economically profitable and with powerful Northern allies felt so threatened? Perhaps the South’s consistent political success in forcing compromises from 1820 onward led it to fatally underestimate the political, if not moral, indignation of the North. It is easy to see slavery as the “cause” of the war, particularly as a means of directly refuting the absurd “states rights” overreach of the post war Lost Cause partisans. But the Unionists were fueled much more by anti-Southern animus than anti slavery indignation, at least during most of the war. The slave as a human really was an abstraction to most Northerners, but seen as part of a system a tool of Southern power as a means of extending Southern political and economic influence “slavery” was anathema. It was, as Lincoln recognized it, a refutation of free labor and personal growth, the very ideals, in an admittedly imperfect way, the North was seeking to achieve. Tragically, this dichotomy between the north’s hatred of the system but apathy about the individuals caught in the system partially explains the ease by which the Lost Cause myth took purchase during the Jim Crow era. That, and the enormous physical, human and emotional toll the war itself took.

  3. John Foskett says:

    Incidents such as this always remind me that you and your colleagues are required to have a unique skill set which I, for one, lack – the ability to deal professionally with astonishingly ignorant questions. I’ve seen other situations where NPS personnel – at NMP but also at other parks – get asked questions which your average second-grader might laugh at. They were handled with a straight face and without a hint of sarcasm or exasperation. The incident you describe also supports my firm belief that we do an abysmal job of teaching US history in our educational system.

  4. John Pryor says:

    Actually, if we only teach United States history without putting our social system in the world context we might create a false negative paradigm, and come to false conclusions. Slavery, particularly in the earlier years of the Republic, was hardly an exclusively American phenomenon. But there is something inherently repellent about it in a Republic whose foundational document boldly claims “all men are created equal.” It was a tragedy that the southern climate in the newly acquired states in the lower Mississippi basin and the technological achievement of the cotton gin, along with the ability of mechanized mills to process as much cotton as could be grown gave renewed life to a dying system. England could eliminate its own system of slavery due to the growth of their own cotton mills as a source of wealth to replace sugar, as well as the relatively few freedmen residing in the home countries. The slaveholders were no fools; they knew that without expansion their wealth, tied up in mortgaging against next year’s crop, was fragile. And for a century, they had been aware that cotton rapidly depleted the existing soil.

  5. Douglas Pauly says:

    I personally find it hard to believe that such a question would be asked by any white person of a black one in this day and age in the USA. The author seems to condemn the woman. I wasn’t there. ,But might some aspects of her question be sensationalized for the sake of ‘outrage’ as opposed to considering that perhaps she could have just asked the question in a better way? Was this woman an American? Personally, I think it a fair question if one bothers to avoid the understandable inclination to ask it from the perspective of ‘presentism’ and to try to get answers via the perspectives of the times. I thought historians were supposed to take those things into consideration?

    We ALL KNOW that slavery IS wrong. But we also know that it was perfectly legal THEN. Southern farms and plantations had let themselves get into a cycle where human labor via the human ‘property’ that were slaves was the only way to make those places profitable. The term “land rich but money poor”, or words to that effect, often accurately described what those plantations could be about. Thomas Jefferson could expound on that.

    If I asked “What was so wrong with Judaism that compelled Hitler to go to war in Europe”, would I get outrage or an intelligent, informative answer? I think the real KEY to the woman’s question is “..and WHY DID IT CAUSE THE CIVIL WAR?” And along those lines the author here DOES deliver a cogent, informative response that provides real answers. If there is any reason to be disappointed with the question, perhaps any real outrage should be directed at our educational system?

    • Meg Groeling says:

      I think this goes beyond the educational system. How about the moral & ethical system the family is supposed to instill within its confines that ultimately creates the moral, ethical, and empathetic individual that comes from said family? That there was a teenaged child there and mom still asks such a harebrained question is simply appalling.

      • Douglas Pauly says:

        Well, again, it’s all a matter of perspective. None of us were there. If I am going to give the author the benefit of the doubt I am also inclined to offer that to the ‘offending’ woman. If the question had been phrased as “What was so wrong with slavery that it led to the Civil War?”, i.e., as ONE question instead of two, I see merit in that. To me, if what is said to have happened indeed did in the way it was reported, I have to ask the author this: did he really believe the woman didn’t see anything wrong with slavery, period? I’m just not inclined to buy that at this time.

    • John Foskett says:

      There’s absolutely nothing about the post which suggests that the author is in any way “sensationalizing” the question. He also stated that she was from New York, so it appears that she was an “American”.Talk to any NPS employee who deals with questions from the visiting public and you will hear things that are astonishingly stupid or callous. Since none of us were there, I see no reason not to accept his account as accurate. Nothing about his reflection on this suggests otherwise.

      • Douglas Pauly says:

        And if you actually bothered to read what I posted, you would see where I gave BOTH of them ‘the benefit of the doubt’. But I will still question aspects of it, such as is it his belief that the woman doesn’t believe slavery is a bad thing? I thought all who fancy themselves as ‘historians’ are SUPPOSED to ask questions, to NOT just take anything and everything at face value? Or if certain subjects are to be discussed, does that not apply? Oh, and of course, everybody from NY is a ‘citizen’. Just like everybody from California and Florida and elsewhere is, right? LOL.

        But I digress. I will give the benefit of the doubt that she IS a citizen. He did volunteer that she is white. He IS black, and an expert in his field. So I still question whether the author finds her ‘ignorant’, or worse? It appears that he doesn’t see anything good about her! He says her teenage children were with her. Meg above made mention about them. To that, I will ask if anyone thinks it’s possible that the woman was asking such a question FOR the benefit of those children, as in asking an expert a straight up question in simplified terms so that that expert can provide the kinds of answers that will benefit her children going forward?

      • John Foskett says:

        I did “bother” to read all of your comments – maybe you should do likewise. My point stands. Your perfunctory statement that you gave the author the benefit of the doubt ignores the fact that (1) you only did so in the hypothetical (“If…”); (2) you only did that in your second comment; and (3) here you then follow up with a string of questions undermining the author’s points. People ask stupid or ignorant questions every day in these settings. The author was right to address this stupid/ignorant question as he did.

      • Douglas Pauly says:

        Let’s also question your comprehension faculties while we’re at it. My questions stand. Is it the author’s belief that the woman has no problem with slavery? Or just that she’s stupid and/or ignorant? Or that maybe the woman was asking in a way so that ‘the expert’ could convey answers that her children could benefit from? He made it a point to speak about her skin color. But I still give him the benefit of the doubt, as I do HER, despite any heartburn that causes you! You are free to do or believe as you wish about him or what he claims. The authors ‘points’ are in no way ‘undermined’, so do try to come up with some other kind of hyperbole. His ‘points’ about slavery and the war are very well taken. They are NOT what I question.

  6. Mike Maxwell says:

    Having taught primary school for a time, it was my experience that children will ask “questions that should not be asked” on occasion. They are not being obtuse; they genuinely do not know. And it is not appropriate to “shout them down,” and make them feel less than human for having posed an inconvenient question. The question should be addressed (even if it means discussing the topic in presence of the child’s parents, in another setting.) Like it or not, some adults have the same awareness of History as children.
    In the case of slavery, and its inherent evil, the answer should be easy for everyone. And in the case of America, a War was fought that brought that evil practice to an end.
    My two bob.

  7. Robert Denney says:

    Whenever I read about slavery in America, I wonder what the discussion would be like if only 5 words had been omitted from the Declaration of Independence: “all men are created equal”.

    In 1776 I dare say there was even one white man in all of America that thought a black man was his equal. Certainly, there were very few in 1861, but the war came anyway.

  8. Lyle Smith says:

    Regardless of how history is taught, there will always be people who are generally ignorant of it. Many peoples’ minds are not attuned to learning it well. They could have the greatest teachers and learn nothing.

    Then there is the truth that we’re all ignorant, because it isn’t possible to know or understand everything even with the brightest of minds.

  9. stewardthenderson says:

    I would like to respond to the many comments that I have received of this post. The woman who made this comment made it to one of my white colleagues, but her voice and tone were loud because the Fredericksburg Battlefield Visitor Center was crowded. Her voice was heard by everyone standing close to her, in front of and behind the counter. I was waiting on another visitor when I heard the question. Her children may or may not have been paying attention to her and I do not know why she asked the question. She may have asked the question because one of her children may have been working on a Civil War project or maybe it was because she was aware that slavery was the major cause of the Civil War. Since she knew that information, I do not think her question was an ignorant one. I have heard and read far worse, since I have worked at this National Military Park.

    This family was going on the next guided tour of the Sunken Road and I was going to lead it. I chose to use her question as a teaching experience and spent an extra five to ten minutes to discuss slavery on the tour. I had recently conducted a History at Sunset program with our Chief Historian, John Hennessy, who is an expert on slavery. Therefore, I discussed slavery using Fredericksburg as my Civil War example. I explained that local, state, and Federal laws protected slavery in Fredericksburg and in the southern states. I briefly explained slavery in Fredericksburg and contrasted it with the surrounding counties. I discussed the first Union occupation of Fredericksburg from April to August 1862, when over 10,000 slaves escaped from the city and the surrounding counties – including a couple from the Richmond area. I also touched on my favorite subject, as I told the group that many of those escaped men returned as soldiers in the 23rd United States Colored Troops and became the first African Americans to fight in directed combat against the Army of Northern Virginia. In essence, I did not take her question as one of ignorance, but as one which need a legitimate response.

    As far as my background in interacting with white people, in most of my professional life, I have had jobs and two careers, where most of my colleagues were white. I worked at the National Institutes of Health for one summer, while I was in high school and I worked briefly at the old Civil Service Commission, which is now the Office of Personnel Management. I spent 35 years in the financial services industry, working my way up from a part-time teller to an Area Manager and Senior Vice President in Retail Banking. I have spent the last 14 years in the Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania National Military Park as a volunteer, an Interpretive Park Ranger, and a sales associate, in the bookstores. So I have developed a lot of patience in interacting with people of all races and ethnic groups. So, when I am asked a question, I try to give an intelligent answer or as in this case, give the answer by giving the individual the information in an interpretive talk.

    I have seen visitors who ask questions to provoke arguments, make jokes about learning about the Civil War, and just because they were not taught or did not learn about the Civil War. I have had thousands of Civil War conversations in my life. Many of them occur because many of our schools do not teach American History or Civics (government), I was lucky because I was taught those subjects in elementary, junior high, and senior high schools. I learned a significant amount of information about the antebellum period and Civil War because it was my favorite time period in American history. I have learned a great deal more in my time with the National Park Service. Since I have been at this park, I have learned that all school systems are not the same in teaching Civil War history and so many Americans, young and old, do not know much about the Civil War. I feel that it is my job to try to educate them, when they go on my tours or ask me questions.

    I have heard and seen many comments from Americans that show there are a lot of Americans, who are still saying the same things that were said over 150 years ago. There are still people who do not believe slavery was a cause of the war.

    In fact, there was an Asian American woman, who was visiting Chancellorsville with a group of Germans. It was after closing, as I was leaving, I was in my park ranger uniform, they asked me some questions about the Civil War. I talked to them about the war for about 30 minutes and at the end, the Asian American woman said that she did not believe that slavery was a cause of the war. I referred her to several sources of Civil War history, plus I informed her that she could read the southern states secession documents. She just walked away and said she just did not believe it. I had just spent my own time, giving her group a short history of the Civil War and the Germans thanked me, but she walked away in disgust. I find that there are many foreigners who know more about our Civil War, than Americans know.

    Whether that Asian American woman even ventured to look at the documents or read any books about the war, I cannot say. However, I think that she was more ignorant about the war than the white woman who asked the question, what was so wrong with slavery and why did it cause the Civil War.

    • Jan Croon says:

      I can verify that in Virginia, students are required to pass a course in US/VA Government to graduate from high school. They also must take a course and pass an end-of-year test in American History. I have taught both.

    • eshek3 says:

      Thank you, Mr. Henderson, for clearing that up. I hope you are our tour guide.

    • Mr. Henderson….

      So we have two questions.

      1. What was so wrong with slavery? Well what was so wrong with Slavery? What was so good about it? If you can’t rationally consider these questions and answer them then what do you really know about it? And can you answer them truthfully without being emotionally or racially biased?

      2. Why did it (Slavery) cause the Civil War? A better question is why didn’t Slavery cause the War? What other issues were prevalent or equally as central to dividing the United States? If you can’t rationally consider these questions and answer them then what do you really know about it?

      • nygiant1952 says:

        There was nothing good about slavery. Period.

        The South left the Union because the tide had turned against that peculiar institution as the United States expanded. Rather than work within the system, the South decided to leave a Union that the FF intended to be perpetual.

        In 1860, the South wrote that they were leaving the Union because of slavery.’
        After the South had been defeated on the battlefield and surrendered tot he North, they South made up reasons eBay they left the Union….all States Rights issues, that meant slavery.

  10. Mike Maxwell says:

    It is said that Atlanta, Georgia resident Margaret Mitchell, who wrote “Gone with the Wind,” was an avid listener to stories “about the war” …and did not realize the South lost that war until she was in High School. Some people fail to get the word; others choose not to believe it. In the end, the effort to dispense Truth must be continued, one person at a time.

  11. John says:

    Blacks went from being enslaved by other African Blacks in Brutish Tribal Warfare to having reliable food, shelter, medical treatment and constructive work. Guess what? Most Europeans at the time lived in some sort of Feudal, Indentured Servitude which wasn’t much better. Blacks today still live on the Democrat hand-out plantation as hapless, witless creatures needing someone to take care of them. So no, it really wasn’t that bad. In fact, compared to Africa, it was Paradise. The White Man’s Burden never ends…

    • patyoungcarecen2019 says:

      John, it is a shame that the “paradise” of slavery was not available to white men as well as blacks. Perhaps you might want to escape your “White Man’s Burden” by offering yourself as chattel to a local African American family.

      • Phil R. says:

        It is indeed available, Pat. People like John who enjoy displaying their ignorance, bigotry, and hatred are shackled to a unique form of latter-day slavery. They’re our postmodern mudsills.

      • And yet Whites were and are no less equally enslaved. You might be enslaved yourself. Now how could that be? What do you labor for and for whom? And what would be the results if you didn’t labor as such?

      • nygiant1952 says:

        Whites earned a wage…slaves didn’t. Whites were able to move and offer their services….slaves couldn’t/t.

  12. “Walk a mile in my shoes.” Many schools do a less than adequate job of teaching about slavery and the Civil War, witness the lady who was on the tour at Fredericksburg and asked her “shocking” question. When you dehumanize an entire race, then it is easy to treat them in a bad way. Maybe if the lady had thought about it, and put herself in a Black person’s shoes, at ANY point in this country’s history, she might truly understand that NO, slavery was/is not right.

  13. ATD says:

    Ho, ho, ho… and the punchline of this emotional dramatisation – the photo of the author at the end. Overall, the experience of the average slave would have compared favourably with the alternative – 19th century darkest Africa. Or do you believe that was some sort of garden of Eden, populated by “The noble savage”? None of the disadvantaged and racially abused in modern America feel so aggrieved as to consider moving back to The Gambia, even with all the comforts provided by modern day western civilisation and infrastructure projects Buy hey, keep up the group politics – that’s really making everyone happier.

    • patyoungcarecen2019 says:


      Surprised to see “Move back to Africa if you don’t like it here” raised as an argument.

      Apart from the obvious bias implicit in the suggestion, I would note that a modern African American can hardly be encouraged to “move back” to a place they have likely never lived to begin with. I could as easily suggest to ATD that if he/she/they doesn’t like the current conversation about race and slavery, he/she/they might also “move back” to the place his/her/their ancestors came from, but that would be silly. Democracies are designed to resolve issues like this without resort to mass expulsions, coup attempts, or the demand that those who disagree with us leave the country.

      I also found ATD’s opening line “Ho, ho, ho… and the punchline of this emotional dramatisation – the photo of the author at the end.” Why would an author’s photo be the punchline of an article? Steward T. Henderson, the author, is not in clownface, but perhaps ATD finds his photo laughable for other reasons. I would prefer not to know what they are.

      -Pat Young

  14. Judy Scarlata says:

    I don’t get your hard response to my comments. I was taught to think how the OTHER person might feel…, you know ( or maybe you don’t, “The Golden Rule?”) This had nothing to do with the color of one’s face. My mother never manifested any form of prejudice in all my years of growing up and she taught us accordingly. She was of the WW2 generation and ahead of her time in many ways.
    And as far as group politics is concerned, I could care less. I don’t believe in anything the “left” is putting out there. As far as I’m concerned, our country is being destroyed by the same” group politics- that’s really making everyone happier.”

  15. Judy Scarlata says:

    Was ATD responding solely to my comments, perhaps? If so, it’s incredibly rude, and if not, then it’s incredibly stupid and may I say “bigoted” to actually tell someone to “go back to where you came from.” Why do you think they came here in the first place? My husband’s people were Italian and they had a next door neighbor that shouted this same bigoted phrase across the fence every time one of the family accidentally stepped on the neighbor’s lawn.

  16. nygiant1952 says:

    very nice article.

    We are still living with the after effects of the Civil War. The 2nd round of Jim Crow laws has just started in Georgia.

    • Douglas Pauly says:

      Yeah, requiring ‘evil’ things like the picture IDs virtually all blacks already have sure is ‘Jim Crow’ revisited. As always, only the white Democrats who own and operate the plantation can provide for blacks or anyone else who isn’t the proverbial ‘straight, white male’. Of course, that said, the ones who would surely know ‘Jim Crow’ and the Klan are those who created such, like today’s Democrats. Some things just can’t be hidden. .

      • nygiant1952 says:

        Sorry…wrong. All Blacks do NOT have a government picture ID.

        Recall that you have to prove who are when you register to vote, and not when you vote.

        Nice try though.

        BTW, all that about the Klan and the Democratic Party….all wrong.


      • Douglas Pauly says:

        Why would blacks not have the requisite IDs when they have the ones needed for air travel, Vaccine passports, welfare access, school access, acquiring medicines, buying alcohol, you know, the very SAME ONES the rest of us have? This is the usual LIE your Democrat Party puts out to protect their ability to get ILLEGALS to the polls. It’s why they created ‘sanctuary cities’ so that things like vote tallies can never be accurately tallied, thanks to their dependence on ILLEGALS voting. But as always, blacks are THE tools the Democrats use and exploit. Some things never change with your kind Giant. It;s ALWAYS 1860 when it comes to your party!

      • nygiant1952 says:

        Doug, Democrats allege that the laws will disenfranchise minorities, who less often have valid IDs. Why do minorities have fewer IDs? Because a lot of minorities don’t have much use for them. The most common voter ID is a driver’s license, and minorities are less likely to drive. Minorities are less likely to have driver’s licenses because they are more likely to be poor and to live in urban areas. If you can’t afford a car, or if you don’t need one because you take the bus or subway, you are less likely to have a driver’s license. Students are less likely to have driver’s licenses for the same reasons (plus the fact that they can sometimes rely on student IDs, and may just have not gotten around to getting a driver’s license yet). Moreover, minorities may be more likely to have lost their driver’s licenses.

        Driver’s licenses are not the only accepted forms of identification, but minorities may face extra challenges in securing other legally valid IDs. Passports, military IDs, and other government-issued photo ID are generally accepted, and some states accept student ID cards from state universities. Texas accepts concealed-weapons licenses, but New York University’s Brennan Center for Justice points out that African-Americans are also less likely to have these concealed-gun permits.

        Of course, minority voters aren’t the only group likely to be disenfranchised. Seniors, for example, are also less likely to drive.

        Poor people are less likely to fly, since they can’t afford the ticket.

        Vaccine passports…NOT the law of the land.

        As far as students are concerned,Students are less likely to have driver’s licenses for the same reasons (plus the fact that they can sometimes rely on student IDs, and may just have not gotten around to getting a driver’s license yet).

        Recall from Civics 101, that you only have to prove your identity when you register to vote.

      • Douglas Pauly says:

        LOL. Oh my, how HELPLESS all those ‘minorities’ are without you white Democrats to look after the and provide for them. The ONLY ‘minorities’ who do not have requisite IDs are those here illegally! Period! You MUST have a valid, acceptable ID to take part in the vast majority of what is called American life! You can’t sign up for school without said ID. You can’t get loans without them. You can’t get prescribed medicines without them. You can’t buy alcohol. Thanks for displaying the always present RACISM yet again behind the typical leftist’s excuse for trying to keep certain people subjugated. but thank GOD you are there to take care of them Giant. How will they ever get through this life?

      • nygiant1952 says:

        Doug, You only need to provide a valid ID in order to register to vote. All states have that.

        As far as the rest of your comment, it’s lacks an understanding of US History. Please read about the 5 Civil Rights cases decided in 1883 or so, that paved the way for Jim Crow Legislation. It was the Republicans o the Supreme Court who gutted the 14th and 15 Amendments.

        When you vote, you sign the voting rolls with your signature. It is much more difficult to forge a signature that it is is the get a fake ID.

    • Douglas Pauly says:

      I don’t need lectures on US history from you Giant. The indisputable fact is that YOU Democrats have determined that blacks and blacks only do not have the ability or capacity to provide for themselves. It’s the absolute definition of the ‘racism’ you and yours so freely throw around regardless of the subject matter. When Democrats speak about ‘minorities’ and more specifically ‘people of color’, it is blacks that they are talking about only. By making everything about blacks it is their )your) attempt to deflect from the real agenda that includes getting the illegals your side needs so desperately in elections to the polls. THAT is ‘historical fact’.

      • nygiant1952 says:

        Actually Douglas, it was the abandonment of the Blacks by the Republican Party in 1876 agreeing to do away with Reconstruction, and in 1883 by a Supreme Court, which led to Jim Crow.

        More likely, it was the Klan which determined that Blacks were not to vote. There is no connection between the Klan and the Democratic Party.

  17. Taylor says:

    I’m not sure I understand.

    “…you only have to prove your identity when you register to vote.”

    Without some sort of reliable ID, how can anyone verify that the person showing up to vote is the same person who is registered to vote?

    Is ID not required in other democratic countries?

    If a person does not have current government picture ID then in other countries there are various means to show the people staffing the polling station that you are who you say you are and that you reside in the electoral area. These can include expired ID, utility bills showing your name and address together with some other form of ID, sworn declarations by other residents, etc., perhaps together with a voting notification of some sort that the resident receives ahead of election day.

    Also, how difficult would it be for a state to offer free (or nominal cost) state identity cards with picture, perhaps through the motor vehicle licensing offices and other suitable state government offices?

    • nygiant1952 says:

      People have fought and died for the right to vote. Voter ID laws prevent people from exercising this right. Accessing a photo ID is much more challenging for the young, the elderly, people of color, and people with low incomes. All of these groups are more likely not to have photo ID, which means they aren’t authorized to work, and may not have access to their local shelter or food bank.

      All of this concern about voter iD, is just to suppress the Afro-American vote. It’s just another “Jim Crow”, and a return to the United States of 1875.

    • Karen Connair says:

      The state of Virginia does offer a picture ID; it is not a driver’s license but you can get one at any DMV. I had an elderly friend in her 80’s who never drove a car, but she needed an ID so she obtained one easily enough through her local DMV at a nominal cost. I am sure all states have a set up like that, or they should.

      • nygiant1952 says:

        You cannot apply for a VA ID card online or by mail. Minorities may face extra challenges in securing other legally valid IDs, cost being one of those.

        No matter how you cut it, requiring some form of ID to vote, when you had to show some ID in order to register to vote, is just a way to hamper one’s ability to vote.

        And when you look at the history of voting in the United States it has always been one of expanding the vote, and not to hinder the ability to vote.

  18. Taylor says:

    Yes, it could be said that tens of millions in the last century alone fought and died for, among other things, the right to vote. However, how do you prevent voter fraud?

    • nygiant1952 says:

      Pennsylvania tallied 3 million votes by mail. Voters who applied for a mail ballot had to give their name, address, date of birth, voting district and how long they have lived there, Kathy Boockvar, Pennsylvania secretary of the Commonwealth, has told the state Supreme Court. The court ruled that mail ballots could not be rejected on signature comparisons.

      In Michigan, another pivotal state that Biden flipped into the Democrats’ column, a registered voter must fill out and sign an application that requires knowing a birth date and other personal information. Voters can mail in the application, take it in person to a clerk’s office or email a picture of the application to the clerk. The emailed picture must show the application’s signature.

      When Trump registered to vote in Florida last September, he put 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue as his address. The Palm Beach County Supervisor of Elections rejected his application, because the state requires you have an in-state address to register. A month later he submitted an application with his Mar-a-Lago address and was accepted.

      That error was caught because Florida has a vast system of checks and balances to ensure that elections aren’t rigged and to detect potential voter fraud, from the secretary of state on down to county supervisors of elections and local canvassing boards.

      Bottom Line: Bipartisan sources agree that voter fraud – for instance, stuffing ballot boxes or voting multiple times – is an an exceedingly rare crime with almost no chance of affecting the presidential election. The Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank in Washington, keeps a voter fraud database, which contains only 207 entries, a tiny fraction of the number of local, state and national votes tallied since 1979, which is as far back as the database goes.

  19. Taylor says:

    Thank you. I appreciate receiving the information.

  20. JudyScarlata says:

    If both parties, Republican and Democrat are concerned with the elderly, people of color, the young and people with low incomes not having the proper I.D.s to vote, why don’t they draw up a joint commission from both parties to go nationwide and enlist volunteers from both parties to help these people and any others who don’t have an I. D. Less complaining people, more doing and helping others to participate in the American system!!!

  21. judythek says:

    I was thinking that the comments that people have made in this discussion, appear to be nothing less than leftist “excuses” for minorities for not having some form of proper I.D. to vote.
    I know, if my grandmother didn’t have an I.D., I’d bring her to get one. If the “young” really want to make a difference and vote, they can go and obtain an I.D., they know how to! They know how to obtain other things they need, they’re not dummies! They just don’t WANT to be bothered, if they can take an easy way out. And, nygiant1952, the comment you made that minorities are more likely to have lost their driver’s licenses….well, whose fault is that? Isn’t it time for everyone to again realize the importance of accepting personal responsibility? How do you account for minorities that have risen above “racism” and got their I.D.s, went through the processes for success like the rest of us. Their numbers are too numerous to count. Are they anomalies or just hard workers? Did they play the race card or did they choose to ignore it and rose on their own abilities and hard work? It is unfair to the majority of hardworking people of all races in this country to give ANYONE a pass on taking PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for those common sense things that that would make life so much easier for all of us, like each of us having an National I.D. card to use for many things, and above all to vote with. Now how could that be “racist” since we’d ALL have one?

  22. nygiant1952 says:

    Sorry Judy…they are NOT excuses….they are real life events.

    And, you only have to show ID when you register to vote.

    All this showing an ID in order to vote, is nothing more than a Jim Crow poll tax, hindering a minority to vote.

    And you know from reading the Constitution, that a poll tax is barred now.

    • Judy Scarlata says:

      So what’s the matter with having a National I.D., given out by the government to everyone free of charge that we can use for everything , including for voting. If everyone has the same I. D., where is the racism in that?

      • nygiant1952 says:

        The problems with a National ID?

        1.A national ID card system would not solve the problem that is inspiring it.
        2.An ID card system will lead to a slippery slope of surveillance and monitoring of citizens.
        3. A national ID card system would require creation of a database of all Americans
        4. ID cards would function as “internal passports” that monitor citizens’ movements
        5. ID cards would foster new forms of discrimination and harassment

      • Judith K. Scarlata says:

        I think we have all of the above already, except for your #1. it’s hard to respond to you, giant, because I don’t think you want to be responded to. I find your answers, again, to be excuses and lack of taking responsibility. Isn’t the word “responsibility” defined the same in all dictionaries?
        Anyone else have any comments or are they tired of this twisting of words and reasoning, too?
        Sorry giant, I just don’t get you. You only see things one way.

      • nygiant1952 says:

        Judith, just a couple of points….

        As far as #1 is concerned,…A national ID card system will not prevent terrorism. It would not have thwarted the September 11 hijackers, for example, many of whom reportedly had identification documents on them, and were in the country legally.

        Terrorists and criminals will continue to be able to obtain — by legal and illegal means — the documents needed to get a government ID, such as birth certificates. Yes, these new documents will have data like digital fingerprints on them, but that won’t prove real identity – just that the carrier has obtained what could easily be a fraudulent document.

        And their creation would not justify the cost to American taxpayers, which according to the Social Security Administration would be at least $4 billion.It is an impractical and ineffective proposal – a simplistic and naïve attempt to use gee-whiz technology to solve complex social and economic problems.

        As far as #s 2,3,4,and 5 are concerned…I am not at all comfortable with Big Brother watching me, as other Americans are. Every so often, I re-read 1984.

        Words have specific meanings…that’s why we have dictionaries, and SAT English exams.

        I tend to hold ones feet to the fire, to make sure that they know what they are talking about.

      • Judith K. Scarlata says:

        Giant, I guess you know everything, so I really find no further point in trying to articulate my ideas. Maybe that’s why no one else has further responded to you. Thanks for the Democratic party line.
        I am sure I will be seeing you in the new socialist state you have planned for the rest of us.

      • nygiant1952 says:

        Judith, it’s not that I know everything. I don’t!

        It’s just because I am well read, and debated the Civil War with friends, many nights, over a few pints of ale. Being well versed in American History, and having studied it, gives me a wider perspective than most people. Much to the chagrin of the Mrs. Giant, I have books galore on all aspects of American History, and I make sure I know both sides of an issue , before discussing it. THAT, is what makes my comments so erudite.

        As far as the new socialist state you mention, plans have already been advanced. Take Social Security for instance. The Social Security Act created a social insurance program designed to pay retired workers age 65 or older a continuing income after retirement.

        Look at Medicare. Realize that in 1965, 56 percent of Americans over the age of 65 were not covered by health insurance. Medicare was passed so that the members of the Greatest Generation, the Generation that survived the Great Depression, and went to war to protect our freedoms, would not have to go to the poorhouse, because of medical disease as they aged.

        Do you receive Social Security and Medicare? I know you have participated in it…both are Socialist programs.

        Or are you planning to hand back that money to the Government?

  23. jennifer smith says:

    when my husband worked in Saudi Arabia, we lived there for 2 years. There are slaves in The Kingdom today! Men and women from around the world live with wealthy families and work 24/7 with no pay. Several Filipino and Thai women slipped me notes when I was at the local mall. They could not reach their families and their passports had been taken away. They hoped I would contact their families in the Philippines to let them know they were okay. Americans spend a lot of time wringing their hands over slaves that have been dead for 100 years while caring very little about the slaves that are alive right now.

    • Jennifer,

      I think we are very Americo-centric in our country, thinking a lot of the time only of OUR history and of what happened to US, here in our lands. I for one, had no idea about those “slaves” you refer to. That was eye opening to me and I try not to think of myself as too naive.
      It is good to remember those slaves from 100 years ago here in our country (and that we fought a civil war to get rid of slavery) but there are actual slaves existing in the world today and human trafficking that contributes to this.
      We can bring to light wrongs in other countries but we only (still) have the power to legally rectify wrongs that happen only here in our own country.
      I think we need to wake up about a number of things in this country. We are NOT the center of the world as we think we are. We were/are the center of the FREE world and we all had better start thinking more about that operative word, FREE.
      If we are not vigilant about what is going on in THIS country and in the world, we WILL become the slaves that we speak about!

      Judy Scarlata

  24. Judy Scarlata says:

    Response to Karen Connair: Hi Karen, if you look farther down in the conversation, about 5 down, I have basically articulated the same thing you just said. Voters should have a proper and legal ID . And it’s the voter’s responsibility to get that I.D.! This is especially true now in light of the fiasco going on over in Afghanistan! When responsibility in negated, situations like this result. I don’t believe this needed to happen in this manner. Like voting, when you relegate your responsibility to others, you start losing your rights, one by one. A President who can leave Americans and those that fought with us behind, has forgone his responsibilities not only to those people but to ALL of us. If he can do that, if he can irresponsibly let thousands in the southern border who, no doubt, will, lacking a REAL Voter ID, allow him to push his Socialist/Communist agenda onto a nation that was “once” free. We will see the importance of each voting eligible citizen having a Voter I.D. Card to prove their identity when they vote- ONCE!!!

    • nygiant1952 says:

      Having to pay some government official in order to obtain an ID, sounds too much to me, like a Poll Tax.

      Now, I carry a copy of the US Constitution with me where ever I go. According to my copy, the 24th Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits the federal and state governments from imposing poll taxes before a citizen could participate in a federal election.

      This business about paying for a government ID, sounds un-Constitutional.

      I think this should put to bed any discussion about providing ID in order to vote.

      As an aside, how many other members carry with them a copy fo the US Constitution to refer to when confronted with something that is un-Constitutional?

      • Judy Scarlata says:

        Hello my friend, Giant! I knew we’d hear from you. Could you quote what the Constitution says a poll tax is… exact quote, please! I know in upstate NY, we have to show our driver’s license ( a form of GOVERNMENT I.D. that we have to pay for and that we also have to use in order to vote.) We also have to sign a roll book that has our signature from each time before when we voted. You can’t fake that! The poll people are right there, watching you. You certainly wouldn’t be able to go in and vote several times to commit fraud.
        I also commend you for being a strict conservative in your interpretation of the constitution, and not interpreting it a more specious manner. Thanks

      • nygiant1952 says:

        A few things…
        1.Here is the 24th Amendment to the uS Constitution..Section 1
        The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay poll tax or other tax.

        Section 2
        The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

        2. IN NYS, I NEVER had to show ID in order to vote. IN NYS, I only showed ID in order to REGISTER to vote. Once you sign in the book, you go ahead and vote.


        Nice try though.

      • nygiant1952 says:

        Judy…this is from a NYS voting website…

        New York does not require voters to present identification while voting. However, if a voter does not provide valid identification at the time of registration, he or she must show identification at the polling place when voting for the first time.

        Voters can present the following forms of identification:

        A current, valid photo ID, including but not limited to a drivers’ license or a DMV-issued non-driver photo ID
        A current utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document with the voter’s name and address


        Can you show me a cite where it says you MUST present ID when you vote.

  25. Judy Scarlata says:

    We have to show our driver’s license up here in the hinterland of New York State. No doubt they want to make sure we are who we say we are. Then we sign. We don’t have a problem with it. So, I guess in your opinion, a NYS drivers license is a poll tax. Ok. We need the Supreme Court to interpret that one. Once more we disagree. It’s ok. That’s what makes America. Just hope we keep that freedom to disagree and don’t lose it because of election fraud and don’t lose it so we get another worthless yahoo of a President like we have now.

    • nygiant1952 says:

      Do I need ID when I go to vote at the polls in NY?

      Generally, you do not need to bring ID to vote in New York. You simply sign your name, which will be compared with the signature the Board of Elections has on file. If, however, you did not provide ID when you registered to vote, you will be asked to provide ID the first time you vote at the polls. Acceptable ID at the polls includes a (i) current and valid photo identification such as a student ID, or (ii) current utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the voter’s name and address. N.Y. Elec. Law § 8-303.

      There….I found the citation.


  26. nygiant1952 says:

    Well, your rights are being violated. And since you aren’t complaining, beware that they might take away more of your rights.

    I gave you a citation above that says in NYS, you do not have to show iD to vote. You only show ID to vote if you have NOT registered.

    I’d appreciate you giving me a cite where it says in NYS you have to show ID even if you are registered. If you can’t, then I would have to say that your rights are being violated.

  27. It is interesting how this article keeps popping up to the Top 10 list long after it was originally written.

  28. Judy Scarlata says:

    I think this is true for a number of reasons. We who were born in the 20th century and who were formally educated in that century are still trying to understand the ramifications of that system. We who are Caucasian, have a totally different experience being Americans in this country as do our fellow citizens of the Negroid race. I’ve thought about that my whole life and have had school friends in high school and college that were black and we always had such great times together. It is only recently that I have run into black women that have been disrespectful to me out of no fault of my own. One said she was angry… I was just unfortunately in the way when she called me a “whitey.” I let it go because I knew there would be a scene. It was at the Y swim class and we were all having a pleasant discussion. We just don’t know what set her off. Nothing mean or provocative was said. I think the whole country is tense right now. Too many bad things going in what I feel is a leaderless country.??

  29. Josh U A says:

    If you show your ID to register to vote, why can’t you show that same ID to vote?

    • nygiant1952 says:

      “Voter ID laws deprive many voters of their right to vote, reduce participation, and stand in direct opposition to our country’s trend of including more Americans in the democratic process. Many Americans do not have one of the forms of identification states acceptable for voting. These voters are disproportionately low-income, racial and ethnic minorities, the elderly, and people with disabilities. Such voters more frequently have difficulty obtaining ID, because they cannot afford or cannot obtain the underlying documents that are a prerequisite to obtaining government-issued photo ID card.”

      • Judy Scarlata says:

        Smart observation, Josh! I agree with you. the solution is so simple! If the government can try to put trillions of dollars into questionable programs that the Socialists “feel” we need, why can’t the government then provide everyone with a simple ID card for FREE that everyone can carry as a legal form of ID? This would solve the problem of identification for those who do not have drivers’ licenses or other forms of legal ID that might be needed. They don’t need to pay for it…it’ll be FREE, do that wouldn’t be an issue anymore for anyone.

      • nygiant1952 says:

        Sorry, but the concept of providing an ID to vote, restricts the right to vote, pure and simple. Look at it as a Poll Tax, which is really is. The 24th Amendment to the US Constitution made a Poll Tax, illegal.

        To mention anything “Socialist” is just a diversion from the real issue…which is to restrict the vote.

    • mark harnitchek says:

      i tried to check out a library book at my very liberal university and needed an ID — not a driver’s licence or a military ID, but a student ID

      So, i agree with you … in the interest of public confidence in the electoral process — which i am not sure we have these days — i don’t think its too much to ask of citizens to produce a photo ID to vote.

      And i don’t buy that racial, ethnic minorities, and the poor can’t figure how to get a photo ID … talk about the soft bigotry of low expectations.

      I am off to vote in the VA elections tomorrow with photo ID in hand … just in case they ask 🙂

      • nygiant1952 says:

        Actually , you are comparing apples with oranges. Checking out a book at a university library is a process that you are attending the university, and also is one of accountability if you lose the book.

        To vote, you have already used an ID to register to vote, thus providing the accountability.

        As far as confidence in the electoral process, President Trump commissioned a group to look into voter fraud, and that group dis-banded because they could not find no voter fraud.

        This who have studied this in the past, have found about 32 cases of voter fraud in over millions of votes cast.

        Facts are, voter ID laws target the poor, and Blacks and other ethnic minorities. And raises issues of Jim Crow with the intent to restrict the vote of people you don’t want to vote.

  30. Judy Scarlata says:

    Ok, guys! My husband and I just voted at the firehouse in our small little Town of Nassau, NY, in Rensselaer County, upstate NY. You walked in and all was usual, they had NYS voters’ rights charts, how to vote stuff, etc. out, the usual stuff you see when you come in to vote. You had the choice to use your Drivers License that ID’d you and you signed on the electronic screen or you could just sign in on the regular rolls. We chose the machine… interesting and high tech and quick! Fascinating! Now don’t tell me that the Town of Nassau was breaking some kind of voting law in NYS by using that handy dandy machine, when no doubt many other municipalities are using it, too! So, was it a poll tax being levied? We’re my rights being violated? I didn’t feel so and I don’t believe any of the other voters there using their drivers licenses and that machine felt that way either! I am sick of people making excuses for those that don’t have ID cards! Find someone to take you to get a legal ID and use it. I am sick to death of excuses like poll taxes, etc. For that matter, maybe a driver’s license could be considered a poll tax! Go look up how our rights are being violated by this proposed trillion dollar “Build BackBetter” scheme that the radicals are trying to push thru Congress! We won’t have any rights left if that radical group gets their way. Maybe they could give everyone an ID free that doesn’t have one so we could all be equal. Then we could ALL vote!
    YAY!! No reason not to. Pick your Battles!

    • nygiant1952 says:

      A few things,

      1. You acknowledge that you can still sign the rolls…which means that you showed ID when you registered to vote.

      2.With all the complaining about Dominica, I am surprised that anyone would want to use a new-fangled , handy-dandy voting machine.

      3. I know how you feel. I am sick and tired about hearing how the election was stolen, when it has been proven that it was the most fair and legitimate election ever!

      4. Build Back Better helps the middle class. https://www.whitehouse.gov/build-back-better/

      What’s wrong with affordable housing? post-high school education? Strengthening the ACA, and decreasing premiums?

      6.Let’s try and keep on the topic at hand….slavery and the Civil War.

    • mark harnitchek says:

      just voted volunteered in the VA state elections — Gov, Lt. Gov. AG and Reps … ID was required which i happily showed … and to Mr.Giant’s point about disenfranchised minorities, there were literally hundreds of African Americans, Asians and Hispanics with their own ID cards … imagine that.

  31. Judy Scarlata says:

    But didn’t you realize? The Civil War is still being fought!

    And if you believe those things that you just wrote, then I feel sorry for you.
    You are assuming things about me that might not be true and I resent that.

    Affordable housing…..we had that before…ever hear of Johnson’s Great Society? What happened to that one? You give people FREE things (like free housing) and they don’t care about them because they have no investment in them. When people work for something, they are invested, they take care of things a lot better when they OWN them, when they pay taxes on them. They have PRIDE. You EARN pride, it’s not something the government gives out for free and all of a sudden you’re “proud.” ……Ooops, I’m digressing!

    And yes, lets keep talking about the Civil War and Slavery.
    We may just yet solve the problems that have never been solved before now and since that war by much greater minds than ours.

    • nygiant1952 says:

      A few more points,
      1. The topic of this thread is “What was so wrong with slavery.” You keep changing the subject, talking about voting rights, and socialism.

      2. The Civil War ended when Lee surrendered to Grant at Appomattox, on April 9, 1865, for all practicable matters.

      3.I can only respond to what you write.

      4. Affordable housing just might decrease the number of homeless people in this country.

      5. As far as the Great Society is concerned…
      a. Social insurance, worker protections, and aid to small farmers, small businesses, and electricity cooperatives, helped spread the benefits of economic growth beyond the financial elite.
      b. The infant mortality rate decreased.
      c, reduced poverty by reforming healthcare, environmental, immigration, and education policies. … The differences between the New Frontier and the Great Society were the decreases in poverty and the increase in the standard of living for all Americans.
      d. The two most significant programs of the Great Society was Medicare and Medicaid.

      Now, if you want to continue, perhaps you an address the Civil War, and the continued attempts to restrict the voting rights of minorities.

  32. Judy Scarlata says:

    Well, go right ahead and accuse me of wanting to deprive others of the right to vote. Hope you sleep well at night accusing others of things that you ASSUME to be true. This IS a discussion, isn’t it? And our discussion is an outgrowth of theCivil War and slavery. No one, not even this many
    Years after the war, can deny that all of the items you accuse others of not wanting people to have, like voting rights and housing, etc. are not still items that are outgrowths of the Civil War. That’s why they still ARE items. War never settled anything and the issues just change form or go underground until they surface again later begging to be resolved. Thus the problems we still deal with.

    • nygiant1952 says:

      No one is accusing you of wanting to deprive others of the right to vote. All we are doing is presenting the facts as to why a picture iD is not necessary to vote.

      I voted today and just have to sign a book where they had a copy of my signature. No ID presented. No ID asked for.

      The housing problems today is an out growth of home prices that are increasing at twice the rate of wage growth.

      • Judy Scarlata says:

        You are a tough customer, you really should run for Congress, Giant. I can see you and Ted Cruz debating one another, now. We’ll, I’ve had enough for one day. I know you enjoy picking on me. Try going after one of the other ones sometime, ok, and please give me a break. I can’t make any comments without being attacked by you, that’s how I feel and I am tired of it.

      • nygiant1952 says:

        Yea, I could take Cruz in a debate, as long as we discuss the facts and not make believe facts.

        NO, I’m not picking on you. It’s the opposite, I am just helping everyone understand that just because one disagrees it isn’t because of Socialism.

  33. This post is back in the Top 10 once again!!!!

  34. Judith K. Scarlata says:

    I don’t think Mark got the memo about this being a discussion site about the Civil War and Slavery.
    Did you get that one now Mark? We must not digress!

  35. mark harnitchek says:

    thanks Judy … i just reviewed that guidance from El Supremo … i read and obey 🙂

  36. nygiant1952 says:

    Evidently, the US is still dealing with slavery and its after-effects. And since this thread has turned into a rant about voting and Socialism, showing an ID has become a topic, even though the Government officials stated this was the most secure election in US history.

  37. Judy Scarlata says:

    I stopped believing the government a long time ago for a lot of things…. Around the time of Vietnam, I believe. I was in high school and college during Vietnam and that was a pretty lying time on the part of our leaders, I remember. I don’t believe most of what is said now, esp. with what went on during the 2020 election. Too much sleaziness, too much stuff that was going on that I believe was “hushed up.” I’m not a conspiracy theorist but when you’ve seen sneakiness before, you probably are quite likely to see it again. Being a Baby Boomer, I’ve seen it lots before and no doubt will see it again. I think they call it “politics” and very few who get down in its mud are able to truly get totally clean again… with some very few exceptions! Maybe Abraham Lincoln comes to mind.

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